Comments on: My take on “the cost of ministerial formation” http://revscottwells.com/2009/11/25/my-take-on-the-cost-of-ministerial-formation/ writing mostly about Universalist Christianity Sun, 25 Jul 2010 14:37:51 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9 hourly 1 By: Hanging out, paying to be a minister, and more « uuworld.org : The Interdependent Web http://revscottwells.com/2009/11/25/my-take-on-the-cost-of-ministerial-formation/comment-page-1/#comment-427 Hanging out, paying to be a minister, and more « uuworld.org : The Interdependent Web Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:59:02 +0000 http://revscottwells.com/?p=73#comment-427 [...] (“Liberal Faith Development,” November 24) and the Rev. Scott Wells asks, “Is a seminary education an essential qualification for ordained ministry? Or rather, is it a one formation opportunity among others?” [...] [...] (“Liberal Faith Development,” November 24) and the Rev. Scott Wells asks, “Is a seminary education an essential qualification for ordained ministry? Or rather, is it a one formation opportunity among others?” [...]

]]> By: Elz http://revscottwells.com/2009/11/25/my-take-on-the-cost-of-ministerial-formation/comment-page-1/#comment-278 Elz Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:27:24 +0000 http://revscottwells.com/?p=73#comment-278 Coming back to this a bit late, but I am also a fan of the DRE model. What bothers me, though, is the lack of equality and flexibility bestowed. The MFC rejected the three tracks of ministry because they found that most community-based ministers also served or could anticipate serving in parish settings. Likewise, I was DRE in a small part-time setting when I was hired for the LREDA-Large setting up here in Burlington, Vermont. Congregations grow, shrink and wiggle. Ministries need to do the same. No credentialling process can anticipate which relationships will respond to change in a healthy way -- any more than an officiant can contemplate the strength of a potential marital couple by interviewing one of the intending spouses. THAT is why I insist on relationship and situations credentialling, rather than Platonic comparisons of an individual against an ideal type. Gradations in types would help, but not much. Coming back to this a bit late, but I am also a fan of the DRE model. What bothers me, though, is the lack of equality and flexibility bestowed. The MFC rejected the three tracks of ministry because they found that most community-based ministers also served or could anticipate serving in parish settings. Likewise, I was DRE in a small part-time setting when I was hired for the LREDA-Large setting up here in Burlington, Vermont. Congregations grow, shrink and wiggle. Ministries need to do the same. No credentialling process can anticipate which relationships will respond to change in a healthy way — any more than an officiant can contemplate the strength of a potential marital couple by interviewing one of the intending spouses.

THAT is why I insist on relationship and situations credentialling, rather than Platonic comparisons of an individual against an ideal type. Gradations in types would help, but not much.

]]> By: Adam Tierney-Eliot http://revscottwells.com/2009/11/25/my-take-on-the-cost-of-ministerial-formation/comment-page-1/#comment-211 Adam Tierney-Eliot Mon, 30 Nov 2009 15:54:27 +0000 http://revscottwells.com/?p=73#comment-211 I woke up this morning rather down on the whole church concept in general. It happens from time to time when I wonder if there is a purpose to the (duly designated and licensed) parish ministry other than institutional maintenance. What if we bulldozed all our buildings and called our new churches "ministries" instead? Would we then be able to get back to the work of building communities rather than istitutions? Would we then be able to recognize the gifts of those who do not run through all the denomnational hoops? Would size matter less? I for one would love a congregation of 12 adults and perhaps 12 kids that met in the back of a brew pub on Sunday afternoons around brunch time. Of course, now in my tenth year of this profession, I have no idea how I would get paid... When I am not on my high horse, however, I like Steve's RE credentialing model. Also Scott, I think your truck metaphor is apt when considering current seminary training. It helps certainly, but not as much as seminaries (and seminarians) think... I woke up this morning rather down on the whole church concept in general. It happens from time to time when I wonder if there is a purpose to the (duly designated and licensed) parish ministry other than institutional maintenance. What if we bulldozed all our buildings and called our new churches “ministries” instead? Would we then be able to get back to the work of building communities rather than istitutions? Would we then be able to recognize the gifts of those who do not run through all the denomnational hoops? Would size matter less?

I for one would love a congregation of 12 adults and perhaps 12 kids that met in the back of a brew pub on Sunday afternoons around brunch time. Of course, now in my tenth year of this profession, I have no idea how I would get paid…

When I am not on my high horse, however, I like Steve’s RE credentialing model. Also Scott,
I think your truck metaphor is apt when considering current seminary training. It helps certainly, but not as much as seminaries (and seminarians) think…

]]> By: Mickbic http://revscottwells.com/2009/11/25/my-take-on-the-cost-of-ministerial-formation/comment-page-1/#comment-201 Mickbic Wed, 25 Nov 2009 23:13:31 +0000 http://revscottwells.com/?p=73#comment-201 At the age of eighteen I was awarded one semester tuition scholarship at Tennessee Temple College in Chattanooga. There were probably two reasons I won the scholarship. I had graduated in the top ten percent of my class and had a strong letter of recommendation from the Bible Memory Association of Saint Louis. I had my heroes in ministry and became disenchanted with the college and Highland Park Baptist Church. At the age of nineteen I gave all my possessions to the Children of God. It was the price of admission to the organization that TIME MAGAZINE called the Storm Troopers of the Jesus Revolution.They handed me an ordination certificate. In the summer of my wife and I had two people living with us that we considered our Christian disciples. The next year I took a part time job as lay minister of a non-denominational church. I printed literature for a Shintoist organization in the late 1980s. Memorial Day 2004 I had a dream I co-founded a UU Church with my credentials listed as my life experiences. I do not have the required health to pursue parish ministry and I spent several years obtaining a bachelor's degree and not particularly fond of higher education. Recently I have been posting on a blog on the subject of abortion. We all are involved in ministry as we nourish one another. Change will inevitably come to the Unitarian Universalist denomination simply because survival depends upon it. At the age of eighteen I was awarded one semester tuition scholarship at Tennessee Temple College in Chattanooga. There were probably two reasons I won the scholarship. I had graduated in the top ten percent of my class and had a strong letter of recommendation from the Bible Memory Association of Saint Louis. I had my heroes in ministry and became disenchanted with the college and Highland Park Baptist Church. At the age of nineteen I gave all my possessions to the Children of God. It was the price of admission to the organization that TIME MAGAZINE called the Storm Troopers of the Jesus Revolution.They handed me an ordination certificate. In the summer of my wife and I had two people living with us that we considered our Christian disciples. The next year I took a part time job as lay minister of a non-denominational church. I printed literature for a Shintoist organization in the late 1980s. Memorial Day 2004 I had a dream I co-founded a UU Church with my credentials listed as my life experiences. I do not have the required health to pursue parish ministry and I spent several years obtaining a bachelor’s degree and not particularly fond of higher education. Recently I have been posting on a blog on the subject of abortion.

We all are involved in ministry as we nourish one another. Change will inevitably come to the Unitarian Universalist denomination simply because survival depends upon it.

]]> By: Steve Caldwell http://revscottwells.com/2009/11/25/my-take-on-the-cost-of-ministerial-formation/comment-page-1/#comment-200 Steve Caldwell Wed, 25 Nov 2009 13:34:46 +0000 http://revscottwells.com/?p=73#comment-200 Scott -- I suggested that we should look at the multiple-level credentialing system that we use for our religious educator credentialing: Ministerial Formation - why do we have a "one size fits all" approach? http://liberalfaith.blogspot.com/2009/11/ministerial-formation-why-do-we-have.html The UUA's "Religious Education Credentialing" program has three levels of religious educator credentialing with varying amounts of education, study, and on-the-job training. This multi-tier approach could be used for ministerial formation. What do you think? Scott — I suggested that we should look at the multiple-level credentialing system that we use for our religious educator credentialing:

Ministerial Formation – why do we have a “one size fits all” approach?
http://liberalfaith.blogspot.com/2009/11/ministerial-formation-why-do-we-have.html

The UUA’s “Religious Education Credentialing” program has three levels of religious educator credentialing with varying amounts of education, study, and on-the-job training. This multi-tier approach could be used for ministerial formation.

What do you think?

]]> By: Ron Robinson http://revscottwells.com/2009/11/25/my-take-on-the-cost-of-ministerial-formation/comment-page-1/#comment-198 Ron Robinson Wed, 25 Nov 2009 06:47:22 +0000 http://revscottwells.com/?p=73#comment-198 I like yours and Christines and all the recent re-thinking, or the revisiting of this old issue. My visioning on it is now up at Planting God Communities, www.progressivechurchplanting.blogspot.com. I like yours and Christines and all the recent re-thinking, or the revisiting of this old issue. My visioning on it is now up at Planting God Communities, http://www.progressivechurchplanting.blogspot.com.

]]> By: Joy Lightning http://revscottwells.com/2009/11/25/my-take-on-the-cost-of-ministerial-formation/comment-page-1/#comment-197 Joy Lightning Wed, 25 Nov 2009 06:25:45 +0000 http://revscottwells.com/?p=73#comment-197 This makes more sense to me than what's going on now... But Scott, when would we do our homework? And still we end up in debt no? Can the salary of the parish assistant cover the cost of the weekend training? I'm working on figuring out how to make real the fantasy I have of becoming a minister. Costs are definitely on my mind. I am appalled at the situation that some seminarians end up in, when at the end of their studies they find they have loans to pay but still are not qualified to serve. The leap of faith to go to seminary now is huge. Who will ever pay the bill? This makes more sense to me than what’s going on now… But Scott, when would we do our homework? And still we end up in debt no? Can the salary of the parish assistant cover the cost of the weekend training? I’m working on figuring out how to make real the fantasy I have of becoming a minister. Costs are definitely on my mind. I am appalled at the situation that some seminarians end up in, when at the end of their studies they find they have loans to pay but still are not qualified to serve. The leap of faith to go to seminary now is huge. Who will ever pay the bill?

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